I think I could use a bit of Dr Jin's magic at the moment, Elizabeth. It's good to read the progress of your gradual relaxation. I'm a fan of Chinese medicine. Thousands of years of wisdom encapsulated in every prick of the needle.
i left my comment for that beautiful piece of thoughtful writing over there
.... and am wondering where your "The way not to argue - my second encounter with a troll" post went .... I wanted to read and comment .... I did read your 2 yr old link and have to say that Niceness is often a kind of badness in people. A rub it in your face kind of thing that I hate and have decided a long time ago that no one needs to rub anyone's face in anything - we're not cats.
Elisabeth -- I hope you can use some Chinese medicine for that leg!
Kimmie -- I took the post down and deleted the guy's comments. I just thought it was a bit much. Normally, I'm up for the argument, but I realized, too, that some people are just plain nuts.
I loved your piece on acupuncture - it felt healing just to read it. I've always wanted to try acupuncture, but I am a bit afraid, squeamish about needles and all things medical and all. But it's tempting, especially the relaxation part, and the quiet, and the music. And perhaps it would help with sadness, too? Or maybe there is no cure for that but living through it and enduring?
Anyway, that's enough...I simply wanted to say I loved your writing over there.
Do you read what you write? 1) you have an issue with a dead American soldier being on your plane flight 2) you have an issue making a care package for an American soldier 3] your swiss born husband explains it all and you do too...........
Do you think if your husband, and Im sure it's your second or third, had been born in Mexico you would have mentioned his birthplace? No you would not. Because you think people from Switzerland are smart, like people from Denmark too. And most Americans are dumb.
Elizabeth? why did you mention your husband was from Switzerland??? why why why...think about it
Dave, I'll give your rants a chance before I delete them if you'd like to stop making personal attacks and argue like a sane person. So far, you've attacked in quite vicious language, myself, my children and my husband. I can't imagine you feel good right now, but, hey -- what do I know? Your reading of my posts is, frankly, and at best, superficial and at worst, not particularly intelligent. Since you choose not to "reveal" yourself (other than an IP address and the state you live in), it feels like I'm talking to a shadow.
Unless you want to speak coherently and refrain from personal attack, I'll delete your comments. I respect others' viewpoints but won't tolerate slander and empty talk.
Oh, and I guess I could answer your question about why I would mention that my husband is Swiss. It's because he is a northern White European and I am actually a pure white, Mayflower stock kind of gal who is secretly plotting to re-populate the globe with perfect white babies. So far, it's working out - except that with your scintillating conversation, I'm in danger of being uncovered. And for the record, he's my seventh husband and I'm not sure how much longer he will remain so...
Elizabeth, I’m not in a position to judge your “niceness.” But from your articles I can discern very clearly that you are a self-obsessed, self-absorbed, self-interested, narrow minded person. That is, if the case doesn’t assist Elizabeth in some way or improve Elizabeth’s lot in some fashion, Elizabeth isn’t interested in it.
I’d be interested to see the list of the seemingly “millions of items for care packages for the troops in Iraq.” You are “…sorry for the troops” why? Those stupid, uninformed men and women volunteered to risk their lives for all of us who wish to fly to heath conferences in Chicago, take extravagant vacations, live in nice houses, drive nice cars and type on our personal computers telling the world just how we feel about everything from Christmas carols to wars.
Screw them. Elizabeth doesn’t care if they’re in Iraq, Afghanistan or San Diego. They got themselves into their own mess. Your Swiss husband said it best, “I mean, those guys volunteered to be there, right? Why the hell do you have to send them care packages?"
Think of that loud-mouthed pilot interrupting your train of thought muttering on about that soldier who was “paying the ultimate sacrifice” (Flying the Friendly Skies). Didn’t he know Elizabeth was worn to a frazzle at that point? You expressed it best when you wrote, “I'd like to say that I felt sad or even moved. But I didn't. Or at least all the stuff about "ultimate sacrifice" and "fighting for freedom" made my stomach turn.”
I mean, we already have the freedom. Why did that guy have to go and get himself killed when Elizabeth already has her house, car, family, computer, vacation time, religious freedom, freedom of speech and even her favorite president in office because he was elected in a democracy? Let me paraphrase your Swiss husband, “I mean, those guys volunteered to be there, right? Why the hell do you have to care or feel anything when they go and get killed?"
OK, so a few thousand Americans and others got blown up in a couple of big office towers in New York. Does Elizabeth have to lose any sleep over that? It wasn’t in L.A. It was in New York and that’s New York’s problem.
And to think of that teacher at a Catholic school having the class recite the Act of Contrition every afternoon before the bell rang (Why We Left Catholic School). “This is when you beg God's forgiveness for your sins, your impure words and thoughts, etc. Frankly, it made me sick.” I can see why Elizabeth was sickened. She and her children are essentially perfect. Her judgment is obviously impeccable so it follows that her children are as well. For a Catholic school teacher to expect Elizabeth’s child to confess his sins to God is, in a word, sickening. Isn’t it Elizabeth?
Did that loud-mouthed pilot think you were Mother Teresa or what?
I had to re-post my comments from yesterday because you deleted them. Maybe since you took the time to respond to Dave, you can comment on my post. Or do you just delete everyone who doesn't agree with you.
Redlands -- I have the same thing to say to you as I do to Dave. If you want to have a civil conversation without personally attacking me, my husband or children, feel free. Otherwise, I'll feel free to delete your comments. I'm not sure what your aim is, though -- are you trying to be persuasive or just excoriate someone for whom you feel utter contempt?
The post from which you "quote" is controversial -- I stated that in the post, quite clearly. I felt terrible that day, remorse, because I knew that that dead soldier had a mother somewhere, mourning for him. He was human. I refuse to concede, though, on the fallacy of that war. It was started on lies, killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and did nothing, absolutely nothing for my precious liberty and freedom. That's a whole lot of jingoistic bull@#@#.
As for my Swiss husband, a sharpshooter in the Swiss defensive army who knew and worked with more than thirty people who DIED in one of the towers on 9/11 -- well, you need to just shut up about him.
I'll leave your post up so that people can see the sort of exchanges possible in this country at present. You have every right to express your political views and rebut mine. But if you slander me or anyone else in my family, I will delete your posts.
Elizabeth, you are being far more gracious than I would or could be. Dave/Redlands, you're rude and antagonistic, using cheap and meaningless personal jabs in your attempt to create an incendiary environment. There are a million blogs filled with anonymous name callers flinging shit at one another. Please just go there.
"Love and only love will endure./Hate is everything you think it is." Neil Young
Redlands, Dave, I am sorry for your anger. I don't know anything about you but your anger. Is the anger righteous? Or is it simply a mask for hatred.
I'd venture to say that everyone who writes is self-absorbed. You, me, Elizabeth.
But don't attack her for her honesty. She admits the uncomfortable numbness, the nausea, that was her reaction to the Iraq War.
If her honesty helped you see or understand something with clarity, you ought to thank her for it. With clarity, not clouded by hatred or misguided anger.
Are you capable of that kind of honesty?
"Opposition is true friendship"--a quote from another self-absorbed writer.
aaaahhh (Sharp intake of breath). Toxicity. Elizabeth, you deserve better. This is YOUR blog. Whatever issues lie under the comments, they are NOT your problem. Sending love to you.
Oh Elizabeth....I am so very sorry you're dealing with this. Redlands and Dave, perhaps you should start your very own blog....then you can post your very own thoughts....instead of here, at blog about a mother who is raising a child with many, many health issues. Self absorbed? Self-obsessed? Walk five minutes in her shoes buddy.
It does seem gutless to heap shit on someone else's best efforts and not declare your own hand.
Elizabeth calls Dave a 'shadow', I think he/she seems to more one who suffers a dose of envy, and makes an envious attack on another who can write exquisitely about difficult matters with honesty at her core.
There is something fundamentally dishonest about these attacks. They deserve to be decried.
If something gets under your skin, anonymous Dave and Redlands, examine it and consider your part in it, rather than take it out on someone else who may have stirred something up in you that you do not yet understand.
There is something so fundamentally cowardly about hiding behind an anonymous post...sigh.
When someone runs out of reasonable arguments or as the Latin meaning of the words to argue, finds it impossible "to make silver", they must resort to make mud. Apparently that poor soul and bitter spirit needs to vent his or her anger by creating a storm of personal dust to hide behind. Alas, it proves to be completely worthless, as the identity becomes unimportant when so much has been revealed by his/her comments about the kind of human being he or she may be.
This is your blog and none of his or her business what you write here or not. Don't expose those of us who are not interested in reading non-sense and mud slinging of such an uneducated and offensive nature. Please delete the rantings, please. It is a sad reminder of what lack of education has done to our country.
Now back to our regular scheduled programming without further and unwelcome interruptions.
I too have vacillated on the "to engage or not to engage" question -- part of me wants my readers to see what it's *really* like in comment-land, while the other part doesn't want to let whoever-they-are soil my bloggy space. In general, I've gone for deletion...
Oh my. Things are rarely black and white and every argument can be challenged; however, once you start throwing punches at people (especially low ones by attacking their loved ones), you won't be heard and seen because they will be too busy defending themselves.
My grandfather fought in both world wars (and I do have a point here, not just rambling), ended up in captivity, dodged the Gulag by a hair, finally made it home (to Hungary) and never ever talked about the war. It was just too ugly, nothing glorious about it. My grandma on the other hand, talked about WWII, a clearly justifiable, "necessary" war. She told me how she was hiding with her sisters in their garden from the Soviet soldiers who went to every house demanding women and food. She told me about the 12-year old neighbor girl who was gang-raped by the soldiers and how she was just one of the many. The same Soviet soldiers liberated Auswitz and defeated the Nazis. The same Soviet soldiers later occupied Hungary and the Eastern block. The same Soviet soldiers are commemorated by monuments and statues. Were they heros or monsters? For my grandma they were monsters, for the captives in Auswitz, they were heros, and for their mothers they had left behind, they were just babies, dearly loved and missed. As I said, things are rarely black and white and people can see things very differently depending on where they stand. Like someone can see you as self-absorbed and self-obssessed because they don't agree with you on the war, regardless of 15 years of selfless, self-sacrificial care and unconditional love for your severely disabled daughter.
I am late to the party - but what's new. Don't answer these attacks. They are beneath you. I screen my comments before I publish them to avoid trolls like these. I have never experienced anything quite like this, however, but I did have one anonymous individual challenge me on a very personal level. Never published it and disallowed personal comments. One question - why in the world does this individual(s) read your blog in the first place. They are simply looking for a place to raise hell. You have enough going on. Don't entertain these comments.
I think I could use a bit of Dr Jin's magic at the moment, Elizabeth. It's good to read the progress of your gradual relaxation. I'm a fan of Chinese medicine. Thousands of years of wisdom encapsulated in every prick of the needle.
ReplyDeletei left my comment for that beautiful piece of thoughtful writing over there
ReplyDelete.... and am wondering where your "The way not to argue - my second encounter with a troll" post went .... I wanted to read and comment .... I did read your 2 yr old link and have to say that Niceness is often a kind of badness in people. A rub it in your face kind of thing that I hate and have decided a long time ago that no one needs to rub anyone's face in anything - we're not cats.
Elisabeth -- I hope you can use some Chinese medicine for that leg!
ReplyDeleteKimmie -- I took the post down and deleted the guy's comments. I just thought it was a bit much. Normally, I'm up for the argument, but I realized, too, that some people are just plain nuts.
I loved your piece on acupuncture - it felt healing just to read it. I've always wanted to try acupuncture, but I am a bit afraid, squeamish about needles and all things medical and all. But it's tempting, especially the relaxation part, and the quiet, and the music. And perhaps it would help with sadness, too? Or maybe there is no cure for that but living through it and enduring?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, that's enough...I simply wanted to say I loved your writing over there.
A bit too much, the guys is nuts?
ReplyDeleteDo you read what you write? 1) you have an issue with a dead American soldier being on your plane flight 2) you have an issue making a care package for an American soldier 3] your swiss born husband explains it all and you do too...........
Do you think if your husband, and Im sure it's your second or third, had been born in Mexico you would have mentioned his birthplace? No you would not. Because you think people from Switzerland are smart, like people from Denmark too. And most Americans are dumb.
Elizabeth? why did you mention your husband was from Switzerland??? why why why...think about it
Dave, I'll give your rants a chance before I delete them if you'd like to stop making personal attacks and argue like a sane person. So far, you've attacked in quite vicious language, myself, my children and my husband. I can't imagine you feel good right now, but, hey -- what do I know? Your reading of my posts is, frankly, and at best, superficial and at worst, not particularly intelligent. Since you choose not to "reveal" yourself (other than an IP address and the state you live in), it feels like I'm talking to a shadow.
ReplyDeleteUnless you want to speak coherently and refrain from personal attack, I'll delete your comments. I respect others' viewpoints but won't tolerate slander and empty talk.
Oh, and I guess I could answer your question about why I would mention that my husband is Swiss. It's because he is a northern White European and I am actually a pure white, Mayflower stock kind of gal who is secretly plotting to re-populate the globe with perfect white babies. So far, it's working out - except that with your scintillating conversation, I'm in danger of being uncovered. And for the record, he's my seventh husband and I'm not sure how much longer he will remain so...
ReplyDeleteElizabeth, I’m not in a position to judge your “niceness.” But from your articles I can discern very clearly that you are a self-obsessed, self-absorbed, self-interested, narrow minded person. That is, if the case doesn’t assist Elizabeth in some way or improve Elizabeth’s lot in some fashion, Elizabeth isn’t interested in it.
ReplyDeleteI’d be interested to see the list of the seemingly “millions of items for care packages for the troops in Iraq.” You are “…sorry for the troops” why? Those stupid, uninformed men and women volunteered to risk their lives for all of us who wish to fly to heath conferences in Chicago, take extravagant vacations, live in nice houses, drive nice cars and type on our personal computers telling the world just how we feel about everything from Christmas carols to wars.
Screw them. Elizabeth doesn’t care if they’re in Iraq, Afghanistan or San Diego. They got themselves into their own mess. Your Swiss husband said it best, “I mean, those guys volunteered to be there, right? Why the hell do you have to send them care packages?"
Think of that loud-mouthed pilot interrupting your train of thought muttering on about that soldier who was “paying the ultimate sacrifice” (Flying the Friendly Skies). Didn’t he know Elizabeth was worn to a frazzle at that point? You expressed it best when you wrote, “I'd like to say that I felt sad or even moved. But I didn't. Or at least all the stuff about "ultimate sacrifice" and "fighting for freedom" made my stomach turn.”
I mean, we already have the freedom. Why did that guy have to go and get himself killed when Elizabeth already has her house, car, family, computer, vacation time, religious freedom, freedom of speech and even her favorite president in office because he was elected in a democracy? Let me paraphrase your Swiss husband, “I mean, those guys volunteered to be there, right? Why the hell do you have to care or feel anything when they go and get killed?"
OK, so a few thousand Americans and others got blown up in a couple of big office towers in New York. Does Elizabeth have to lose any sleep over that? It wasn’t in L.A. It was in New York and that’s New York’s problem.
And to think of that teacher at a Catholic school having the class recite the Act of Contrition every afternoon before the bell rang (Why We Left Catholic School). “This is when you beg God's forgiveness for your sins, your impure words and thoughts, etc. Frankly, it made me sick.” I can see why Elizabeth was sickened. She and her children are essentially perfect. Her judgment is obviously impeccable so it follows that her children are as well. For a Catholic school teacher to expect Elizabeth’s child to confess his sins to God is, in a word, sickening. Isn’t it Elizabeth?
Did that loud-mouthed pilot think you were Mother Teresa or what?
I had to re-post my comments from yesterday because you deleted them. Maybe since you took the time to respond to Dave, you can comment on my post. Or do you just delete everyone who doesn't agree with you.
ReplyDeleteRedlands -- I have the same thing to say to you as I do to Dave. If you want to have a civil conversation without personally attacking me, my husband or children, feel free. Otherwise, I'll feel free to delete your comments. I'm not sure what your aim is, though -- are you trying to be persuasive or just excoriate someone for whom you feel utter contempt?
ReplyDeleteThe post from which you "quote" is controversial -- I stated that in the post, quite clearly. I felt terrible that day, remorse, because I knew that that dead soldier had a mother somewhere, mourning for him. He was human. I refuse to concede, though, on the fallacy of that war. It was started on lies, killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and did nothing, absolutely nothing for my precious liberty and freedom. That's a whole lot of jingoistic bull@#@#.
As for my Swiss husband, a sharpshooter in the Swiss defensive army who knew and worked with more than thirty people who DIED in one of the towers on 9/11 -- well, you need to just shut up about him.
I'll leave your post up so that people can see the sort of exchanges possible in this country at present. You have every right to express your political views and rebut mine. But if you slander me or anyone else in my family, I will delete your posts.
Elizabeth, you are being far more gracious than I would or could be. Dave/Redlands, you're rude and antagonistic, using cheap and meaningless personal jabs in your attempt to create an incendiary environment. There are a million blogs filled with anonymous name callers flinging shit at one another. Please just go there.
ReplyDelete"Love and only love will endure./Hate is everything you think it is." Neil Young
ReplyDeleteRedlands, Dave, I am sorry for your anger. I don't know anything about you but your anger. Is the anger righteous? Or is it simply a mask for hatred.
I'd venture to say that everyone who writes is self-absorbed. You, me, Elizabeth.
But don't attack her for her honesty. She admits the uncomfortable numbness, the nausea, that was her reaction to the Iraq War.
If her honesty helped you see or understand something with clarity, you ought to thank her for it. With clarity, not clouded by hatred or misguided anger.
Are you capable of that kind of honesty?
"Opposition is true friendship"--a quote from another self-absorbed writer.
aaaahhh (Sharp intake of breath). Toxicity. Elizabeth, you deserve better. This is YOUR blog. Whatever issues lie under the comments, they are NOT your problem. Sending love to you.
ReplyDeleteOh Elizabeth....I am so very sorry you're dealing with this. Redlands and Dave, perhaps you should start your very own blog....then you can post your very own thoughts....instead of here, at blog about a mother who is raising a child with many, many health issues. Self absorbed? Self-obsessed? Walk five minutes in her shoes buddy.
ReplyDeleteIt does seem gutless to heap shit on someone else's best efforts and not declare your own hand.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth calls Dave a 'shadow', I think he/she seems to more one who suffers a dose of envy, and makes an envious attack on another who can write exquisitely about difficult matters with honesty at her core.
There is something fundamentally dishonest about these attacks. They deserve to be decried.
If something gets under your skin, anonymous Dave and Redlands, examine it and consider your part in it, rather than take it out on someone else who may have stirred something up in you that you do not yet understand.
Otherwise you ferment hatred. That's not helpful.
There is something so fundamentally cowardly about hiding behind an anonymous post...sigh.
ReplyDeleteWhen someone runs out of reasonable arguments or as the Latin meaning of the words to argue, finds it impossible "to make silver", they must resort to make mud. Apparently that poor soul and bitter spirit needs to vent his or her anger by creating a storm of personal dust to hide behind. Alas, it proves to be completely worthless, as the identity becomes unimportant when so much has been revealed by his/her comments about the kind of human being he or she may be.
This is your blog and none of his or her business what you write here or not. Don't expose those of us who are not interested in reading non-sense and mud slinging of such an uneducated and offensive nature. Please delete the rantings, please. It is a sad reminder of what lack of education has done to our country.
Now back to our regular scheduled programming without further and unwelcome interruptions.
I too have vacillated on the "to engage or not to engage" question -- part of me wants my readers to see what it's *really* like in comment-land, while the other part doesn't want to let whoever-they-are soil my bloggy space. In general, I've gone for deletion...
ReplyDeleteSorry you're having to deal with this.
Oh my. Things are rarely black and white and every argument can be challenged; however, once you start throwing punches at people (especially low ones by attacking their loved ones), you won't be heard and seen because they will be too busy defending themselves.
ReplyDeleteMy grandfather fought in both world wars (and I do have a point here, not just rambling), ended up in captivity, dodged the Gulag by a hair, finally made it home (to Hungary) and never ever talked about the war. It was just too ugly, nothing glorious about it. My grandma on the other hand, talked about WWII, a clearly justifiable, "necessary" war. She told me how she was hiding with her sisters in their garden from the Soviet soldiers who went to every house demanding women and food. She told me about the 12-year old neighbor girl who was gang-raped by the soldiers and how she was just one of the many. The same Soviet soldiers liberated Auswitz and defeated the Nazis. The same Soviet soldiers later occupied Hungary and the Eastern block. The same Soviet soldiers are commemorated by monuments and statues. Were they heros or monsters? For my grandma they were monsters, for the captives in Auswitz, they were heros, and for their mothers they had left behind, they were just babies, dearly loved and missed. As I said, things are rarely black and white and people can see things very differently depending on where they stand. Like someone can see you as self-absorbed and self-obssessed because they don't agree with you on the war, regardless of 15 years of selfless, self-sacrificial care and unconditional love for your severely disabled daughter.
I am late to the party - but what's new. Don't answer these attacks. They are beneath you. I screen my comments before I publish them to avoid trolls like these. I have never experienced anything quite like this, however, but I did have one anonymous individual challenge me on a very personal level. Never published it and disallowed personal comments. One question - why in the world does this individual(s) read your blog in the first place. They are simply looking for a place to raise hell. You have enough going on. Don't entertain these comments.
ReplyDelete